Last Update: Oct 9, 2008

INTERVIEW 4. October 9, 2008

1? We were pleased, intrigued and more than a little surprised to hear of your discovery of those unused songs from the last three album's recording sessions. You have made your position quite clear that you only wish to release music that you are proud of, and given that at some point you must have considered these songs not suitable for release, what has prompted your decision to do this now? Why rework or tidy them up? If you feel they will only be of interest to some and not worthy of an official release, why not just release them as they are?

The songs in question here are songs that were written during the recording of the Exile, Pure and Jagged albums. If I didn't think these songs were good songs I would probably have erased them. I still have a tendency to just dump songs that aren't working out as I prefer the excitement of starting a new song rather than wasting too much time on ideas that didn't quite make it. However, over the last few albums, I have learned not to be too harsh and to try to recognise where a song may not be right for the album I'm working on, but is, nonetheless, still a good song. For example, if I'd written Cars during the making of Jagged it wouldn't have gone on the album but, in recognising that it is a good song, I would have filed it away somewhere. Unfortunately, my 'filing away somewhere' usually means forgotten. The songs intended for this 'Resurrection' album are, in the main, those kind of songs although some brand new songs will also be included. It was never that they were unsuitable for release, they were simply unsuitable for Exile, Pure and Jagged. Those albums had very specific styles and not everything I wrote fell inside those style boundaries. Having said all that, the songs are still dark so it's not like I'm going to be putting out a collection of country music and soul tracks. On top of that, we are also using 'Resurrection' as a testing ground for ideas intended for 'Splinter', the album officially intended to be the follow up to 'Jagged'. Being able to sort out what works and what doesn't will give us more time, when we start on 'Splinter' in earnest, to concentrate on developing the ideas that do work and so will make 'Splinter' a better album.

Cars wouldn't have made it on to Jagged. Honest!

With so many people asking me about unreleased songs over the years it's always been clear to me that people seem to like the occasional release of these 'forgotten' tracks but it's only since Sacrifice/Exile that I've started to 'file away' anything. Prior to that it was almost unheard of for me to have songs sitting on the shelf. So, I am proud of these unreleased songs, such as they are at the moment, but, like any song in progress, I will be far happier when they are tidied up or, to put it another way, when they are properly finished.

I don't remember saying they are 'not worthy' of an official release, I certainly shouldn't have done if I did. They will be officially released but possibly not into the shops. Increasingly, as album sales continue to plummet ever downwards and shops, both on-line and high street, continue to squeeze the labels and artists, we will be releasing things directly to the fans and cutting out the middle men. I hope they will be of interest to the vast majority of fans, if not all, but I would like to make it clear that, although it will be an album of previously unreleased tracks, it is not the follow up to Jagged.

2? Following the fantastic success of the Telekon Mini Tour in 2006 and with the Replicas 2008 Tour earlier this year, do you feel you have finally found a way to balance your live work with the old verses new material? If so, what does the future look like for these one off album tours after Replicas?

The honest answer is I'm still not sure. As I've said before, the reason for even thinking about the Telekon tour was because I was becoming increasingly uncomfortable with a number of things. I did not want to fill up my conventional tours and mini tours with lots of old songs, I did not want my tours to become 'Greatest Hits' nostalgic type events. I'm very proud of my ongoing musical evolution and I want my tours to highlight exactly that, how I'm evolving, where I am now. But, I began to realise that my stance was so rigid that it was beginning to look as if I was sticking two fingers up at the fans that had supported me the longest. It was becoming borderline arrogant but I still didn't want my main tours to become nostalgic so it was something of a growing dilemma. So, the idea for these classic album shows was born. A way of touring, from time to time, that gave all those fans that wanted to hear more old stuff exactly what they wanted but in a way that celebrated the albums themselves rather than just trotting out a long set of hit singles. It's also worth pointing out that many of the newer, younger fans, those that have got into me via the more recent albums, have also been asking for old stuff as many of them weren't even born when it first came out and so missed entirely all that early stuff when it was played live initially.

The Classic Album tours do seem to be filling the gap somewhat without pulling the image people have of me back into the 80's. It's taken a long time of very careful work and some degree of sacrifice to create a reputation that is Gary Numan, musician, not Gary Numan, 80's pop star. I absolutely would not have even considered doing something like Telekon and Replicas even five years ago as then I was still struggling to shed my 80's label. These days, thanks to the recent albums and my absolute refusal to get involved with anything 80's or nostalgic my reputation is current and so other opportunities, like these Classic Album tours, begin to open up.

In some respects Replicas was slightly different as 2008 is also a celebratory year for me and so made sense for that reason as well. In 2008 I saw the 30th anniversary of my turning professional as a musicain, 30 years since the release of my first ever single, plus, in March it was my 50th birthday. These are things that I wanted to celebrate with the fans, the people that have given me the life I've had so far. And what better album to play than Replicas, the first successful album of my career and so the one that started it all. As you may remember I had a few misgivings after Replicas but, I'm glad to say, that after a lot of thought I've come to see it quite differently. I now appreciate the connection that these 'Classic' album tours give me with fans, old and new, and how they've given me a sense of pride in my history. Not only that, they allow me the space I need to keep moving forward with my ongoing musical progression.

Telekon. Manchester 2006

To answer the question though about balance I think it remains to be seen. I only have a few albums I would be willing to play live in their entirety. The Pleasure Principle would be one more, perhaps the original Tubeway Army album but that, for the older ones at least, is it. If the idea of supplying old songs in that way is still working well when, and if, both those albums have been toured what would I do then? I don't know. So, for the time being I seem to have found a balance but it obviously won't last forever and I need to think of how to keep satisfying the demand for that balance of old verses new that works for fans of all the different stages of my career and, just as importantly, works for me.

3? Friends of mine have commented that Ade Fenton's album, Artifical Perfect, has that classic Numan sound, particularly around the vocal work you did on the album. I'm not sure I agree because it's clear Ade has his own style influenced by various things. What are your thoughts on this? And how does the way you approach the vocals on a track differ when you sing something of your own compared to something written by someone else?

The reason that Ade's album has that so called classic Numan sound on the songs I sing on is because, to many people, my voice is the classic Numan sound. For some it's the early string sound as used on Cars, for others it's something else but, for most, my voice has defined my sound from day 1. It is, for all it's good and bad points, quite distinctive. Whereas I have a tendency to bury the vocal somewhat in effects, a legacy still of my low confience days I guess, Ade keeps the vocal very clean and so the true voice is heard more easily. It's a technique that gives a beautifully clear vocal but, for those of us still struggling to believe we can actually sing, it can make you feel a little exposed. I don't approach the recording of my vocals any differently be they for my own songs, someone elses, as in Artifical Perfect where I sing a melody already worked out with someone else's lyrics already written, or a collaboration where I'm free to sing my own vocal but over music written by someone else. It's all just singing. I think I've mentioned before that with my own stuff I'm aware that my voice suits certain sounds, in certain situations, better than some others and so I can tailor my own music and lyrics to perfectly suit my voice. It's not always that easy when you are singing someone else's track and that can make it more difficult. Mostly though it's not a problem.

It's all just singing. Ade Fenton Session, Janice Long Show, Radio 2

4? How do you feel about the illegal download situation?

It's killing sales of CD's and legal downloads, absolutely killing them. Some people will say that the upside to this situation is that the people illegally downloading music are making the live scene flourish as they are still fans of the band and want to see them live. But how is that an upside? These people were fans before presumably and so would have gone to see the band play live anyway and probably bought the album legally. Some people seem to be of the opinion that people illegally downloading music are somehow 'new' fans that weren't around before. How do they figure that? Have these people grown out of a little seed packets once illegal downloading became commonplace? These are just people that are getting into music as part of growing up, or older people that are becoming increasingly internet literate, that simply don't see the point in paying for something when they no longer have to. And stealing something, by downloading it in the comfort of your own home, doesn't make you feel like a common thief and certainly isn't as scary or as risky as lifting something from your local high street store.

Things are changing quite dramatically in many ways. If my sole income was from selling recorded music, CD or download, then I would already have been forced out of the business and that's a frightening thing to come to terms with. But it's quite a common point of view amongst people I know in the business. It's quite normal these days for record companies to be insisting that any new band has to sign a deal that gives the record company certain management rights, publishing and even a significant chunk of the bands income from live work, as well as the usual rights to ownership of the bands music and so on. This is the biggest indicator I can point out to you that shows how bad things have become. Even record companies cannot exist by selling CD's alone, so low are the legal sales of music.

I think I've said before that we know for a fact that Jagged was illegally downloaded at a rate that eventually became over 5 to 1 compared to those bought legally. That figure by the way makes my fans amongst the most honest you could hope for so I'm grateful for that. However, only selling 20% of the albums actually in peoples homes is obviously a fairly crushing statistic for me. It's absolutely crippling to be honest. The making of albums has almost got to the point where they are considered nothing more than expensive to make promo items and the necessary evil requirement to justify going out on tour where, if you are lucky, you might make some money.

I still haven't covered the recording costs of Jagged through sales of the album and I make albums fairly cheaply due to my hands on approach to recording and having my own high quality studio. If I had relied solely upon Jagged for income I would have earned nothing at all since it was released. Not a penny. I'm not sure I ever will earn from it, and that could apply to any, and perhaps all, future releases. It's another reason why we are so keen to keep things 'in house' and sell them directly. Putting out albums through conventional stores and outlets earns such a small amount from the retailers, and has so many risks attached to it, that you would need to sell many more than you used to just to break even and, becasue of illegal downloading, we are now selling many times less than before, not more.

Being a great live band is more important than ever before

It's quite possible that in the future bands will release less and less new material but play live far more. Making new albums that only sell in very small quantities will become prohibitively costly. I think more people will go the route we are going and establish their own closer ties with their fan base and become their own cottage industries. I certainly can't imagine ever signing with a label again, unless they offer some ridiculous amount upfront as an advance, as their new contracts take so much of the bands income, from so many different sources, it's becoming impossible for a band to survive financially unless they are massively successful.

Having said all that I feel that we saw this coming some time ago and have set ourselves up well for this new future. We have a vibrant and enthusiastic fan base which uses this web site as it's information hub. We have instant feedback and can respond quickly to both our needs and the fans. We are closely tied and, to a large degree, are genuinely moving forward together. I actually find all this change in the industry very exciting.

5? Quite often the early punky songs you play on tour seem to go down a storm. Would you ever consider playing a concert that had no keyboards and concentrated on just very early, guitar based Numan stuff? Granted this show would be very energetic, but great fun, what do you think?

I have toyed with this idea, or one just like it, as part of my wondering what I'm going to do about balancing old songs and new once the classic album tours have had their day. It's not out of the question. Strangely enough, for me it wouldn't be that energetic though. Playing the guitar requires a lot more care and concentration than just singing, doing the two together is even worse, so I tend to stand fairly still whenever I'm playing guitar.

6? Will the new 'Splinter'album see a departure from the heavy, industrial sounding atmospheres of Pure and Jagged? Jagged was a far greater progression from Pure than many fans were expecting so can we expect a similar leap forward, even if it stays in the heavy electronic area?

I hope I can make another big leap forward with Splinter. I love the Jagged album, and Pure before it, butI certainly don't want to make another Jagged or Pure. However, I would like to keep travelling along the same musical road as those two albums. With Pure, and especially with Jagged, the song writing came easy and it was very enjoyable. On the song writing weeks I had most of them written on day one, developed on day two and spent the next few days fleshing them out. The time taken to write them was very little. The time taken to turn them into the things you hear on the finished album took a lot longer.

More everything

As far as Splinter is concerned I'm confident that the song writing side of things is still working well. What work I've done so far has come easy and I see no signs of losing this creative streak that started with Sacrifice and has been at full flow throughout Pure and Jagged. Although I'm sure some people will think differently, from my point of view, my song writing has never been better than it has been been over the last two albums. Splinter seems to be continuing that way. It's too early to say how the album will eventually sound but the only thing I can promise is that it will be as close to a sonic onslaught as I can make it. I want it to make Jagged sound tame by comparison. I want it to be so catchy that the huge chorus's on Jagged will sound almost bland when played alongside Splinter. Like before, I want it to be bigger, darker, stranger, more epic, more beautiful, more powerful, more aggressive, more everything.

7? You seem to mention your wife and family, and put up any photos of them, very rarely. Why is that?

On the rare occasions I've put up photos of Gemma, and even the children I'm sad to say, I have always had a small but hostile amount of feedback. I remember one that said 'It's bad enough you ramming your wife down our throats, now we have to put up with your children as well." I don't take too much notice of that kind of stuff but I did decide that it might be best if the web site concentrated mostly on the musical side of things and that I kept family away from it for the most part. As much for their sake as anything else. I love my family very much and I'm very proud of Gemma and the children but I completely understand that some people are only interested in the musical part of what I do and that's what they expect from this web site.

Gemma Numan

However, the site has always made it clear that it is the place to come for ALL things Numan and that, surely, should include my family. So, occasionally, I will put up little snippets of information, pictures and so on that are more family related. I might even create a small corner of the web site especially for such things. Those of you not interested, or those of you that think it destroys 'the rock star vibe', as someone has said, can easily avoid those pages and my rock star status, such as it is, can remain intact. I do remain though vary wary of exposing the children to the public gaze too often, not that it's anything too intrusive or uncomfortable, just something to be cautious about. At the moment they think it's completely normal that I sing songs for a living, go on stage, go on TV and all that stuff. They think that's what Dad's do. I would like them to hang on to that feeling of it being 'normal' for as long as possible.

8? When I first listened to Jagged it was almost overwhelming. I found it difficult to listen to. There was too much to take in and I just didn't get it straight away. Same thing happened with Dance, although they are worlds apart. But now I feel this is one of its many strengths. It's almost like an epic movie, its character develops with time. Was it always your intention to create such a broad sweeping vision or did this just grow out of the working partnership with Ade Fenton?

I did want it to sound epic in some ways yes. I also wanted it to sound dense, multi layered, to have so many things going on, big and small, that it would take people many, many listens before they had even heard everything, let alone worked out what those sounds and parts were there for. To really hear the songs as I hear them. There is a lot going on at times and your brain tends to latch on to the most obvious things at first. Listen again and, as it gets used to those key parts, you will start to pick up other, smaller things, and so on until, hopefully, you begin to appreciate the full might of everything and, hopefully again, begin to get a feel for the amount of work that went into it. It's something I've been trying to do with my albums for a long time but I think the last few have really started to get it right. Ade Fenton definitely had his part to play in Jagged being as dense as it is.

I have always believed that albums need to be an immediate pleasure on that basic, enjoying the key parts, level. But, they need to be layered enough that continued listening continues to unveil more and more of the complexities of how they were put together and all the other little sounds and noises hidden away. I think those albums last much better and people are able to listen to them for years without getting bored. It's more than just writing good tunes although that will always be the foundation stone that everything else, all the layers, are built on top of.

9? Do you miss the heady days of 1979 when you were massive the world over or has your life achieved a better balance these days?

A little bit of both I would say. When everything first exploded in '79 it was, without doubt, very difficult for me. I've been asked a lot of questions about those days this year, due to the Replicas tour and the interest around the original Replicas album, and the more I thought about it the more I realised how badly I took to it. It was too much, at too young an age. It was nothing like I expected and I found it to be a far more hostile, scary thing than I had ever dreamed it could be. I recoiled from it in some ways and yet stumbled through it as best I could. Having said that it was still an amazing experience. It's so hard to put into words, without waffling on for hours, the way it affects you. Everything you've ever dreamed of is happening, but with that dreamy reality comes another world of nightmares you are completely unprepared for. Made all the worse by being a solo artist of course, no band mates to share the experience and the burden. People love you in large numbers and, seemingly, larger numbers seem to hate the ground you walk on. It's a bizarre world you slide into and I was very glad when it all began to calm down slightly.

These days things are different. For one thing, people that know who I am when I'm out mostly only know me as being a known musician. I don't get the hostility anymore. The days of fans camping in my garden and banging on the windows at 3 in the morning, of people chasing me in my car and screaming abuse out of the window, of death threats and girls selling stories to the press, all that seems to be over and, generally, life is far more enjoyable now than it was back then. Whereas before the press were, almost without exception, unkind and scathing, these days I'm talked about with respect. People cover my songs regularly, people talk about my influence and I'm getting better album reviews for the new stuff than I ever had before. Everything seems to have grown up somehow and yet the gigs themselves are still exciting and emotional experiences, like they used to be, but now I have a confidence that takes away all the anxiety I had in the early days.

I'm proud of where I am now and what I've achieved whereas before, even though I was hugely successful, I felt as though I still had everything to prove and that pressure weighed me down badly at times. I used to be riddled with self doubt and an overwhelming, at times, lack of confidence. All that is gone and, although I still think making albums brings with it huge pressures and challanges, I look forward to them now. If I'm really honest I would have to say that I do miss some of the more extreme parts of those early days, especially as now I feel I could handle that sort of thing with ease but, overall, I would have to say that I do have a much better, far more balanced and enjoyable time now than I did back then. Even 30 years after my first single I still make music, I'm still reasonably successful, I can still sell out shows and I have a level of respect I wouldn't have believed possible back in 1979. On top of that though is the fact that I would like to be doing much better than I am so life and career is still challenging and that makes it exciting and keeps me hungry and eager to push forward.

10? Do you worry about getting older, your looks changing, fitness, things like that?

Up until very recently I would have said no, not at all. I was quite comfortable with the way I was growing older. I still looked okay, my levels of fitness were good enough to go out on tours of up to a month without struggling in any way at all, and that with a punishing schedule and a very physical and energetic stage performance. In fact, I used to laugh quietly to myself as friends started to show signs of discontent about the way age was getting its grip on them. Maybe today is a bad day, but today I'm not feeling so good about things. It's been a very intense few weeks and I'm feeling it more than I feel I should. It takes too long for my face to recover it's shape after I wake up and it takes too long for me to stop aching although Gemma says a new mattress would sort that out. I'm not convinced. I've a feeling that things are about to catch up with me.

Maybe today is a bad day

I've even considered actually doing some exercise which is something I've avoided my entire life. I didn't realise things could ever come to that. I've always said that getting out of bed is enough exercise for anyone but I might have to eat my words. I was bought a set of weights for my birthday by my drummer Richie and his lovely girlfriend Steff so perhaps they are trying to tell me something.

Seriously though I'm doing okay. I guess when the day comes that no amount of make up or clever lighting can make me look vaguely presentable then I might have cause to reconsider but I'm not sure I will ever be that bothered. Until I started living with Gemma I didn't even have a mirror in the house so I've never been overly concerned about the way I Iook. I do realise that I have a history of creating images, especially for the first 15 years or more, but that was more about creating an image to front the musical style of the albums rather than trying to make myself seem good looking. For someone that has spent so much time creating these images it must sound somewhat hard to believe that I don't care to much about the way I look. But that's the way it is. I don't think I'm ugly and I'm content with the way I look in this my 50th year. I hope, as I grow older, I can hang on to that attitude and avoid the worries that seem to haunt some other people.

11? What advice would you give someone just signing their first record deal?

Advice is never easy as what worked for me might not work for someone else. What suits my personality might not suit their's and so on. Believe it or not I'm often given advice by people that think they have all the answers. Invariably they suggest things I've already tried and which didn't work or things that I simply wouldn't do as it would require a totally different person to carry it off. Often it'a advice that clearly has no grounding in reality or even the most basic understanding of how things work. I look a certain way, think a certain way, have the personality I have with its own strengths and weaknesses and we all have to find the way that suits us best. So, difficult to give meaningful advice, but this might be useful.

Always look after your fans. Not trying to be creepy here but it's an obvious fact that fans are the very lifeblood of any music career and it's close to suicide to treat them badly. You are not better than them, you simply have a different job or, perhaps, have had a bit more luck. I have fans who range from all walks of life, many of them highly successful people in their own right, and I have never felt like I was superior. Don't forget, a number of todays superstar musicians were/are fans of mine so what an idiot I would have been if I'd talked down to them when they were on their way up. I doubt they would have the same respect for me as they seem to.

Believe in what you are doing but never think you are God's gift to music. The world is full of clever people and you will never be the only talented person in the business. Enjoy what talents you have but respect those of others and try not to take it all too seriously. On no account think of yourself as original. The best we can hope to achieve is a slightly different version of what's been before and that is actually something to be proud of. Most people are simply copying what's been before.

Never, ever take it for granted

Don't let record companies bully you. Unless you are very lucky they will try to change you in to what potential they saw in you to begin with. Most bands think they are being signed for what they are, what they do and how they sound, but many are signed because the record company can see in them an opportunity to mould them in to what they actually want. It can be very demoralising and frustrating. I had something of a fight on my hands when I took the Tubeway Army album to Beggars Banquet as it was not popular with all sections of the label management. I was lucky that they went ahead with it but, if I hadn't stuck to my guns and had gone back to the studio and recorded the punk album they wanted, I might never have had a career in music. You may have to ask yourselves if it's worth losing the deal or bowing down and doing what they want you to do. Not an easy situation, especially for a new band.

Finally, enjoy it. You are going to be living a life, even if huge success escapes you, that will be exciting and something that many people will only ever dream about. You could travel the world, see things and experience things you will hardly believe, for a while anyway. You will touch peoples lives all over the planet and how amazing is that? Most of all, you must always remember how lucky you are. I've talked to countless bands over the years who moan about touring, moan about being in the studio, moan about signing autographs, moan about everything. They have lost sight of just how fantastic being in a band is and just what a great life they are living and they totally piss me off. I love it, I want it to last forever and I never, ever take it for granted.

12? Now that flying seems to be a thing of the past for you, do you have any other hobbies? What do you do to relax?

I don't really have any time for hobbies anymore, not now I have three children and the career is doing much better, but I do, whenever possible, get down to our boat. Sadly it's not very often. Over the past few years I've gone on various courses and built up my qualifications but it really is something you need to do fairly regularly if those skills are to be kept current and therefore useful. I do love it though so hopefully I'll be able to manage time a little better in the future and get out on it more often. I have thought about using it as a studio from time to time. That could work in the future as somewhere quiet to get away to to come up with the initial ideas for an album. It's true to say that home is very rarely a quiet, peaceful place anymore where ideas can flow freely and being able to get away for a few days a week might be just the right thing to do. But then I would miss everyone and it wouldn't be fair to leave Gemma home alone with three very young children.

At Reading Festival 2007

I do get out to gigs as often as I can which, again, isn't as easy these days. This year for example I've only been to a handful of gigs which is a shame. Living so far away from London doesn't help. Since we've moved out of Essex it takes a long time to travel in to the city and that obviously adds to the problem. I suppose in many ways I still think of going to gigs as closer to work than a hobby or relaxing though. It's impossible not to look at what people are doing and think about what I do and if any of what I see or hear is useful to me. No, I think for the time being hobbies are out of the question and relaxing isn't something I've ever been good at.

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